Charter Member of the Sub-Media

June 09, 2005

Context (UPDATED) « China/Taiwan »

So I bet you've heard that the Chinese Communist government killed 20 million of its own citizens in the 50s and 60s. You might hear 30 million, the top credible report.

If you point out that it wasn't a deliberate decision of the government as much as overenthusiastic one-upmanship that resulted in three successive years of crop failures...well, you will be told that such a situation is still the fault of the Communist Government, because they were in charge and didn't fix/help the situation.

Interestingly, however, you don't hear the anti-PRC activists admitting that the government of Taiwan is then directly responsible for more than 9 million deaths on the Chinese mainland. Not to mention probably another 30 million people dying from the aftereffects of such disasters, including disease and starvation.

Even though that chart blames it on the People's Republic of China, the dates show that more than 9 million of the deaths occurred during the period that the Nationalist Party was in charge.

So as bad as the Communists have been, the 20 years under an oppressive Nationalist Party (our friends in Democracy!) were even worse.

Not to mention what the Japanese (our friends in Democracy!) did to the Chinese people in their seven years of occupation on the Mainland.

For some reason, we are not supposed to ever forget what the Communist Government did, but we aren't supposed to ever mention what Our Friends in Democracy! did only a few years before. Why is that?

That's why I have no confidence in the "Two Democracies have never gone to war against each other" theory. It depends too much on torturous definitions of "democracy" and "war". Right off the top of my head: Pakistan and India have fought, and both have had democracy (although Pakistan's is currently in suspension right now, as the military conducted a coup several years ago to prevent a Fundamentalist Islam government from taking over).

...which isn't to say I think all is sunlight and roses in China.

But the vast bulk of Chinese citizens aren't being oppressed, and seem to be pretty happy with life. Most have the freedom to get rich, and then to spend that money on whatever they want, and worship where/when they want, and criticize the government, and leave the country, and travel around the country. The level of freedom enjoyed by most Chinese people would more than satisfy 95% of the world.

Put another way: there's principle, and then there's being a dickhead. A dickhead "knows his rights" and in the United States, its resulted in things like mass murderers being set free because they bumped their head when being put in a patrol car. In China, being a dickhead would probably get you a decade of hard labor, true.

The lesson? Don't be a dickhead.

In the United States, we have the freedom to be dickheads. That sure has made rush hour in any big city a pleasant experience. Related, in a way.

No, I'm not seriously saying I think China's way is better. There are serious problems in China. They seriously need the establishment of the Rule of Law there. If some local police bigwig in China decides to overstep his authority with you, you have no recourse, and no method of redress. You could be dead before anyting can be done. That happens in the US, too, but usually something can be done before you end up dead or in jail. Usually. With a slightly lower rate of success when the IRS or FBI get involved.

I guess my point, if I even have one, is that if China were that horrible, the deaths of 1,000 to 2,000 wouldn't deter them in rising up and demanding freedom. If things were that horrible in China, you wouldn't have people wanting to return there to live. If things were that horrible in China, the military would rise up and overthrow the government.

And if things were that great here in the US, we wouldn't have Kent State, Selma, The Watts Riots, abortion (more than 30 million dead over the last 30 years), Ruby Ridge, Branch Davidian Compound...

Just consider, please. That's all. If, after considering, you still feel the same way, fine. But don't just swallow statistics that lend comfort to your prejudices, okay?

UPDATE:
Gordon gives me some good-natured grief over here. Feel free to pile on me on this; that's what blogging's all about. [grin]

Posted by Nathan at 07:51 PM | Comments (8)
» asiapundit links with: 'our friends' bombed pearl harbor
Comments

HAHAHAHA!

I'm glad you have such a good sense of humor :-)

Posted by: Gordon at June 10, 2005 02:54 AM

Well, I didn't used to...but I learned not to take myself so seriously, and that helps a lot.

Posted by: Nathan at June 10, 2005 03:07 AM

Nathan-

I don't recall- did you read Iris Chang's book?

Posted by: Jo at June 10, 2005 08:12 AM

I haven't read the book.

I've seen the documentary based upon the book, and I'm fairly familiar with most of the numbers and many of the horrible techniques the Japanese used...worse, in many ways, than what was done at the German concentration camps.

Posted by: Nathan at June 10, 2005 09:46 AM

Since when was the KMT an actual democracy? Since when after Sun Yatsen's resignation has Mainland China ever experienced democratic government?

Authoritarian dictatorships, be it in the form of the KMT/PRC, have been running China since the beginning of time, and were responsible for tens of millions of deaths. China has never experienced an actual democracy.

A label describes little.

Posted by: delto at June 10, 2005 09:55 AM

Delto,
Exactly!
The "Our Friends in Democracy!" is the best way I can express sarcasm on that issue.

Now, Taiwan is kind of Democratic now...although from what I hear, the amount of corruption there means the country's political system is about as Democratic as Tammany Hall. But that's better than it was.

Yet we defended Chiang Kai-shek (Jiang Jieshi) and vilified Mao Zedong, although they were equally despotic and evil.

I'm not trying to say Mao was a great guy. But compared to the alternative, well, maybe history would have been different if Mao had sent an attractive wife who spoke English to the US Congress back in the 30s, instead of Chiang.

The KMT sure pulled a snow job on us back then!

Posted by: Nathan at June 10, 2005 10:07 AM

Mao deserves all the flack he can get for what he did, much of which we are all still in the dark about. Chiang's despotism is also something we should be critical of.

As "corrupt" as Taiwan may be, its citizens enjoy the other "secondary benefits" of democracy, which are nearly always overlooked, such as an open and diverse civil society, public accountability, a working judiciary, the rule of law, etc. As a pretty new democracy, I wouldn't hold Taiwan to the level of other more established democracies.

I think that because the KMT's absolute power was severely diluted, and because Taiwan made a transition to democracy, whatever criticism of the past of the Republic of China (including in the mainland) was likewise lessened. Since the PRC is still an authoritarian society, the tragedies of its past are not mitigated by the effects of democratic society. Hence the contrast between the dark past and the present is more pronounced regarding the mainland, than it is for the Republic of China's past.

Posted by: delto at June 10, 2005 10:17 AM

Right. As I'm fond of saying recently, "Voting" does not equal "Democracy"; there's a lot more to it.

Actually, what China needs most right now is Rule of Law, so its people can know there will be a consistent relationship between their actions and the consequences. Even in a harsh regime, if you can know 99% that certain actions bring specific penalties, and other actions will not be punished, then you can make intelligent choices about your actions. That's freedom.

But the thing is, I feel that Taiwan's move toward Democracy does...sort of...allow us to place some of their horrible actions in the past. But in my opinion, the PRC's market reforms do the same thing. Economic freedom is no small issue. People have much more freedom to emigrate out from under China's govt now.

And let's look at the Chinese people, themselves. Should we ignore their opinion to insist on our outrage? Many of the people I know in China would love to move the US. Many have no desire to leave China, even if given the chance. Many Overseas Chinese I know in the US are planning on going back. Many are happy here, but go back to visit whenever possible.

When the govt-ordered massacre happened in Tiananmen, the Chinese people were of course horrified and upset. But the ones I've talked to (including protest organizers in WuHan and participants in Beijing) reacted as if, "Okay, that was a mistake on our part as much as the govt. We are not allowed to determine our political destiny. Fine. Let's put our energy into getting rich, then." And they proceeded to do just that.

Based on the people I've talked to, most Chinese people are over the Tiananmen Square Massacre about as much as we in the US are over the Kent State "massacre". There are some people who make a living out of being outraged and never getting over things, and those people are still upset. The vast majority have moved on with their lives, and have new things to be upset about; usually, the breaking of their "Iron Rice Bowl."

The biggest problem I have with so easily excusing Taiwan for their bloody past is that we have expressed more regret over Viet Nam, over slavery, over our colonial past, and China has expressed more regret over the starvation, the Great Leap Forward, and Tiananmen than the KMT/Taiwanese EVER over their bloody past.

Chiang Kai-Shek was a bloodthirsty tyrant. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but he was FAR worse than Mao Zedong on many levels. Everything he did was to keep him and his cronies rich. He generally refused to fight the Japanese in WWII. He made agreements with the Communists that he broke by murdering his ostensibly allies by the thousands. He murdered native Taiwanese by the thousands to solidify his rule of the island, then kept martial law there throughout the rest of his life (it continued for 50 years), preventing the native Taiwanese from having any say in their own govt.

Every person who says anything about "Free Tibet" and never said a peep about "Free Taiwan" is a hypocrite due to their own vast ignorance.

And the attitude the US had that blocking communism justified any crime is truly dispicable. I'm glad we've done a lot to rectify that.

Posted by: Nathan at June 10, 2005 12:14 PM
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